rear torsion bars

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9 years 6 months ago #6622 by pvmini
pvmini created the topic: rear torsion bars
Building my first class 11 car and have been trying to find out which rear torsion bar I should use. I went to the sway-away web site and noticed they have three different lengths, some that are hollow!!!! and several different diameters. I'am building a 1970 with the stock gas tank and no tank in the rear. I'am running the new 18\" fox shocks per the new SCORE rules. since class 11 must run a stock width rear torsion tube which length torsion bar fits? what is the advantage/ disadvantage to the hollow torsion bar? what diameter bar are most racers running? Thank you for any information I can get---trying not to make to many expensive mistakes on my first build. This site has been a great help. Thanks agin.

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9 years 6 months ago #6624 by 11 Brothers Motorsports
11 Brothers Motorsports replied the topic: Re:rear torsion bars
We run 28 intermediates with intermediate springplates. Our car is a little heavier than others tho. I know people run 27's if the car is lighter.

This is Richard. Driver of #1101

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9 years 6 months ago #6625 by michaelbrenner
michaelbrenner replied the topic: Re:rear torsion bars
We ran the 29mm longs but our car was too stiff, but it resisted bottoming pretty well. I'm going with 27mm longs this time around, no rear fuel cell but a tire back there for sure. There will also be a jockey crew inside so take that into account.

2013 SNORE Stock Bug Champs

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9 years 6 months ago #6628 by LAPDANCEMOTORSPORTS
LAPDANCEMOTORSPORTS replied the topic: Re:rear torsion bars
We ran 28MM diameter bars with a 26 9/16\" length.

Anywhere in the range mentioned above should be fine. The longer the bar, the less torsion load absorbed by the bar as it has to twist less and less. With an adjuster in the rear, you can put enough preload on any of those bars to get the rear to resist quite a hit. The problem however, its difficult to control the rebound. You'll want to revalve the shocks once you get the bars set.

Cameron Bucher
Yeah dude, I\\'m cool.

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9 years 6 months ago #6648 by michaelbrenner
michaelbrenner replied the topic: Re:rear torsion bars
You'll end up wanting as much rebound valving as your shock will handle with a stock reservoir. Some people have exotic reservoirs that keep the oil cool and run up to 4 times the stock rebound to make the car handle better.

Stiffer bars don't need as much preload to achieve the proper ride height either. A stiffer bar will ramp up quicker but will unload to a point with the same authority. Basically you want to run a spring that will keep you off the ground but won't make the back of the car hop off of whoops and kick up.

2013 SNORE Stock Bug Champs

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9 years 6 months ago #6650 by pvmini
pvmini replied the topic: Re:rear torsion bars
Thanks for the information it all helps! When you set up the preload on the rear torsion bars do you have any droop at all with the car's weight on the rear suspension? If not I can see why you want all the rebound you can get out of the shocks. When preloading the torsion bars is there a degree angle on the spring plate thats a good starting point----I'am not using an adjuster in the rear so I would like to start somewhere close so I don't have to take it apart to many times!

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9 years 6 months ago #6654 by LAPDANCEMOTORSPORTS
LAPDANCEMOTORSPORTS replied the topic: Re:rear torsion bars
I did 24 degrees of preload on my 1600 car. Obviously this is a different animal, but I'd say it'd be somewhere between 10-20 degrees. Mike or Dave can give you a for sure measurement.

Cameron Bucher
Yeah dude, I\\'m cool.

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9 years 6 months ago #6655 by michaelbrenner
michaelbrenner replied the topic: Re:rear torsion bars
Depending on the size of the bar you're probably going to end up something near 8-16. More preload with smaller bars and less preload with bigger bars. And yes, under the weight of the car you should have some sag, this is how some measure to get it just right. If it's a street car/prerunner stay on the lesser end of these figures. Preloading will eventually break the bottom of you stops also, you'll need some super stops eventually.....Dave, now is a good time to chime in on that....

2013 SNORE Stock Bug Champs

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7 years 9 months ago #11962 by Mace
Mace replied the topic: Re:rear torsion bars
After draggin azzz at BAP with stock rear torsion bars. I need a set of SAW's.

26 9/16" 27's a good choice? Or??
28's?

Special thanks to
Derek at www.denospeedwerks.com/
Jose at www.dprmachine.com/
www.bakercylinderheads.com/
Mike and Chris at f-o-a.com/
And Greg at www.getpipe.com


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Signifying nothing.

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7 years 9 months ago #11965 by DaveCo11
DaveCo11 replied the topic: Re:rear torsion bars
Stay aways (sway away)are the worce bars made,JUNK!! TCS-the converter shop bars are the best going I wont recommend sizes because of expence and differences from car to car , but will say the stock IRS length is good for swing or IRS.

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7 years 9 months ago #11966 by Mace
Mace replied the topic: Re:rear torsion bars
DaveCo11 wrote:

Stay aways (sway away)are the worce bars made,JUNK!! TCS-the converter shop bars are the best going I wont recommend sizes because of expence and differences from car to car , but will say the stock IRS length is good for swing or IRS.


Really?

I have never heard that there rears are junk. Only the Fronts.

TCS then. I'll go look

Special thanks to
Derek at www.denospeedwerks.com/
Jose at www.dprmachine.com/
www.bakercylinderheads.com/
Mike and Chris at f-o-a.com/
And Greg at www.getpipe.com


It is a tale
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Signifying nothing.

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7 years 9 months ago #11968 by DaveCo11
DaveCo11 replied the topic: Re:rear torsion bars
sway away bars(rears) are the most inconsistent bars made, one batch will have one kind of metal, the next some other kind with every excuse known to man why they break-sag or dont load at all. Old sway away bars are a thousand times better than a new set of 300M sway aways, thats why I call them STAY AWAY!

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7 years 9 months ago #11970 by porboy
porboy replied the topic: Re:rear torsion bars
For a period of about a year and a half sway away had difficulty procurring consistent quality metal as it was coming out of China. From what I have heard TCS had the same problem. They (Sway Away) actually stopped making/selling 300m bars for awhile once they realized the product they were putting out was flawed. You couldn't find a set of their 300m bars for a period of time. Jeremy and I recently purchased and are using Sway Away Long 27 mm 300m bars and absolutely love them. We had the same concerns as Dave and talkied at length with several Sway Away reps as well as some trusted people at well known shops who all confirmed the manufacturing tolerances and materials were all taken care of. Unfortunately for Sway Away they damaged their rep. If you are going to get new bars, no matter what the brand, save a little more and get the 300m. It is nice to finish the race with the smae ride quality that you started with and it makes dialing in your shocks so much easier as it eliminates the variable of torsion bar sag.

<strong>Jason Gutzmer
#1130</strong>

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7 years 9 months ago #11985 by dezertthing
dezertthing replied the topic: Re:rear torsion bars
I have a set of SAW 27 300m's, that were used in a 2700 pound class 5 play car.
Can anyone attest to running torsion bars that have been used before?

My thought process was this. At around $800 for a set of new bars, I have , out of shear luck, ended up with a free set that will fit my 11 car perfectly. The 11 car should weigh in a bit less( I hope!!?) than the 5 car, and I'm hoping these bars are more... pre-stressed, than clapped out.

I guess I'll find out once the car is done, but I thought I'd just ask if anyone has any horrific experiences with used torsion bars?

What is the average life expectancy of 300m's in a class 11?
How many times can you re-clock, or turn the adjusters?
Scott

Scott Small

tripleXeleven racing

XXX 11 Motorsports
www.facebook.com/tripleXeleven/?ref=tn_tnmn
'73 Class 11
Owner build in progress
John Davis built DP 1600

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5 years 1 day ago - 5 years 1 day ago #18443 by psiruss15
psiruss15 replied the topic: Re: rear torsion bars
How do you determine the length of the bar (Short 21 3/4, intermediate 24 11/16 or Long 26 9/16)? Just looking to clarify that it is a preference and not based on the year of the car.

and I guess how does that affect the selection of a spring plate? If at all.

Any help/advice is always appreciated.


(69 beetle)

Baja 1000 2013 or Bust
Gluttons for Punishment
Last Edit: 5 years 1 day ago by psiruss15.

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1 year 9 months ago #21417 by EnseNADAslim
EnseNADAslim replied the topic: Re:rear torsion bars

dezertthing wrote: IWhat is the average life expectancy of 300m's in a class 11?
How many times can you re-clock, or turn the adjusters?
Scott


Good Question. We're in the process of trying to figure out what happened to our rear end in the SF250. After we pulled the shocks we noticed about 5" of play at the rear end arms, and there is a gap of about a 1/4" from the adjuster arm to the adjusting bolt--odd. Car was solid at the start. We have about 3400 miles on them,,,all Baja except for the 200 at the Mint. Could we have twisted the bars? So far the Adjuster arms seem to check out fine, no cracks or bends.
We have 28 longs, SwayAway M300, purchased 4 years ago

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1 year 9 months ago #21421 by michaelbrenner
michaelbrenner replied the topic: Re: rear torsion bars

psiruss15 wrote: How do you determine the length of the bar (Short 21 3/4, intermediate 24 11/16 or Long 26 9/16)? Just looking to clarify that it is a preference and not based on the year of the car.

and I guess how does that affect the selection of a spring plate? If at all.

Any help/advice is always appreciated.


(69 beetle)


1969 had long (26-9/16" bars with double spring plates) Those are the best size and spring plate you want to run.

We have TCS bars from a great 2008 vintage, they are super skinny and the have been custom cut to a top secret dimension :woohoo: and have never really taken a set nor have I noticed them sag much. I have run non-300M before and they are just a headache to dial in and that makes everything you're trying to do with the shocks that much more difficult. Big bars set too, I had some 29s with practically no preload and they still sagged a bit during our later preps on the old car from 2006.

300M bars should last a LONG time on a class 11 (we have about 2500 miles on ours) since they are not preloaded much and they don't cycle anything near what a 1/2-1600 car does due to rear fenders, rear tire diameter (bump limitation) and CV droop angle capability. Do NOT switch side on the torsion bars, that will kill them, they are marked L & R so keep them installed on their correct sides to prevent sagging them in the opposite direction. You can get them magged. You should also follow this assembly tracking technique for your CVs and axles to monitor wear and damage.

The etching tool is your buddy here, sharpie doesn't work with laquer thinner needed to clean it all up during prep!

2013 SNORE Stock Bug Champs
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1 year 8 months ago - 1 year 8 months ago #21433 by DaveCo11
DaveCo11 replied the topic: Re: rear torsion bars
Dont waste your time with anything other than 300M bars, more expesive to begin with but money well spent. I recomend sway away these days something I never thought I would say. My bars have been in my car for 6 years and were used when I got them. I wont tell you what size to use but you want the long bars on a IRS car I ran shorts on my 67 swing car for decades. Most class 11 cars use 27-28mm bars, you cant go wrong with those and going smaller takes more suspension tunning and shock work plus your car needs to be light to go smaller. Tried and true 27-28 have worked for 40 years in this class. I would not chance a Baja race with anything than new torsion bars. Bars are the weakest link and can snap with no warning at all. good luck
Last Edit: 1 year 8 months ago by DaveCo11.
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1 year 8 months ago - 1 year 8 months ago #21434 by DirtDgr
DirtDgr replied the topic: Re: rear torsion bars
Have the standard Sway Away bars in my car. Been in there since the car was built in 2010! Been lucky it sounds like!

I need me some new 300M ones! Keep meaning to get them. But $850+!!

www.facebook.com/meekracing1142/
Thank You Lakeport Tire, Rugged Radios, Baja Designs, Sunoco, Two Larry's Racing
www.facebook.com/meekracing1142
Last Edit: 1 year 8 months ago by DirtDgr.

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1 year 8 months ago #21435 by EnseNADAslim
EnseNADAslim replied the topic: Re: rear torsion bars
Well,,,we are not totally sure yet, but it is possible that our Fabricator had the bars reversed,,,that is about the only solution Brian at SwayAway could think of. Everything else is checking out OK. Still need to Mag the bars, but he said most likely if they are cracked in any way they would have most likely just broke. We might never know exactly what happened.
As Brenner stated,,,they are marked, L&R. But our guy was in a rush to button the car up...
So with possible reversed bars at one point, then being correct for the SF250,,they got all twisted up. The Bars have over 3000 miles, so looks like we'll need to get a new set, or Sway recommends that we do. Sigh,,,and before the 500... But you don't want to be in the middle of no where, or on the way up to Mike's with busted Bars. Thanks for the info guys...
CYA in June DirtDgr,,,or April?

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1 year 8 months ago - 1 year 8 months ago #21473 by DirtDgr
DirtDgr replied the topic: Re: rear torsion bars

EnseNADAslim wrote: Well,,,we are not totally sure yet, but it is possible that our Fabricator had the bars reversed,,,that is about the only solution Brian at SwayAway could think of. Everything else is checking out OK. Still need to Mag the bars, but he said most likely if they are cracked in any way they would have most likely just broke. We might never know exactly what happened.
As Brenner stated,,,they are marked, L&R. But our guy was in a rush to button the car up...
So with possible reversed bars at one point, then being correct for the SF250,,they got all twisted up. The Bars have over 3000 miles, so looks like we'll need to get a new set, or Sway recommends that we do. Sigh,,,and before the 500... But you don't want to be in the middle of no where, or on the way up to Mike's with busted Bars. Thanks for the info guys...
CYA in June DirtDgr,,,or April?



April for sure. Excited to see all the other stuff you do besides Class 11 and help out some. See you then.

www.facebook.com/meekracing1142/
Thank You Lakeport Tire, Rugged Radios, Baja Designs, Sunoco, Two Larry's Racing
www.facebook.com/meekracing1142
Last Edit: 1 year 8 months ago by DirtDgr.

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1 year 6 months ago #21520 by EnseNADAslim
EnseNADAslim replied the topic: rear torsion bars
OK,,,here is our puzzle... We thought it was possible that our bars might have some how got reversed, then switched back, or after 3000 miles they just got tired. Either way, we got a new set of 27 long's, SwayAway M300's. Got them set in the car,,,we went with 27*, and after a couple test runs, and letting them settle in we cranked the adjusters a bit. The car was riding at it normal height, and after another test run, all looked good.
In the race the back end felt OK,,,just a tad loose, soft, but I think it was slowly dropping. Eventually at RM75ish we hit a bump (and mind you we were kind of taking it easy) and down he went. Total ZERO out on the back end, all the way down on the right side. We had jack it up and place a 4x4 on top of the Arm just to raise it up to get home.
After taking the shock off it was just free movement on the arm an you could see the adjuster moving along with the arm. Knocked out the bar,,,intact, not broken, and all the splines intact, nothing chewed up. No grinding marks on the adjuster arms, no visible cracks,,,but more to look at.
What in the Sam Hill is going on?

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1 year 6 months ago #21521 by DaveCo11
DaveCo11 replied the topic: rear torsion bars
So far it sounds like the finger was jamed in position and finally moved, I have seen it before and I am sure I will see it again. It happens more than you think
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1 year 6 months ago #21522 by EnseNADAslim
EnseNADAslim replied the topic: rear torsion bars
Well,,,Torsion bars appear to be fine, but I guess the Spring Plate spun out at the welds. Dang! we had the Chromoly's too. Gunna send them in as the welds seem very thin.

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1 year 6 months ago #21523 by Ewetho
Ewetho replied the topic: rear torsion bars
Any chance inner torsion mount is failing? But if the outer torsion tube is stationary and spring plate moves that would be a dead giveaway.

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